Thread overview
February 28

After discussion in a recent meeting, we're ready now to start accepting DIPs for review. And that means it's time to announce the new process.

The main goal of the new process is to reduce the amount of "process". The rules of the prior system were intended to create a moderately high barrier of entry in order to discourage frivolous proposals. In practice, they created an extremely high barrier of entry that also discouraged serious proposals, frustrated several DIP authors who went through the process, created too much of a time sink for everyone involved, and did not allow for early indication of the chances that an author's time and effort would result in a favorable outcome.

The new system simplifies the process by putting most of the control in the hands of DIP authors. Some key points:

  • Feedback begins with the initial DIP idea.
  • The predefined review rounds are gone.
  • Multiple DIPs can be under review at the same time.
  • The DIP author decides when a draft is ready to submit for assessment.

Most of the process takes place in two new forums: DIP Ideas and DIP Development (dip.idea and dip.development on the NNTP server). The purpose of the Ideas forum is to determine if developing the DIP is feasible. The purpose of the Development forum is to strengthen proposals in development.

The process works as follows.

  • A potential DIP author (or someone looking for an author) posts a description of the idea in the DIP Ideas forum for community discussion and feedback. Periodically, I'll make sure Walter and Atila are aware of the new idea posts so they can provide their initial thoughts. This should give a potential author a good sense of the DIPs chances, e.g., great idea, go for it; maybe, give it a go if you'd like; no way, no how. Based on this feedback, the potential author can decide whether to proceed with development.
  • When an author does proceed, then once the initial draft is ready, they should make a new post in the DIP Development forum with a link to the draft for community feedback. They should address feedback as necessary by revising the DIP or explaining why they disagree. The author should expect to allow two or three weeks for feedback just to give stakeholders enough time to process it and formulate an opinion, particularly if they want feedback from Walter and Atila at this stage.
  • After at least two or three weeks of feedback, the author can contact me when the revised draft is ready. If the extent of revision is significant, I'll ask the author to make a new DIP Development thread for feedback on the new draft. Otherwise, I'll ask the author to submit a PR to the DIP repository.
  • When the PR is submitted, I'll merge it, assign a DIP number, edit as necessary, and email Walter and Atila for assessment. They'll have two weeks to review it (though depending on circumstances, we can extend that as necessary). As before, they'll accept it, reject it, or ask for modifications.

I want to emphasize that though any DIP that makes it to assessment in this new process should theoretically have a strong chance of acceptance, there can never be a guarantee. For example, Walter or Atila or someone else may uncover a major overlooked flaw before the decision is made. Or an author may have proceeded with a DIP that Walter and/or Atila expressed skepticism toward at some point in the Ideas or Development forum and the DIP failed to convince.

The key point is that we want the author to know before the first draft whether the DIP has a strong, weak, or near-zero chance, and during development whether they're generally going in the right direction, but no one can offer a 100% guarantee.

All potential DIP authors should read the DIP Authoring Process doc here:

https://github.com/dlang/DIPs/blob/master/docs/process-authoring.md

Once the development is underway, the author should also read the Authoring Guidelines:

https://github.com/dlang/DIPs/blob/master/docs/guidelines-authors.md

I should note that while we still want the language of the final draft to be semi-formal to formal, it's not something the author needs to be overly concerned about during development. Once the PR is submitted, I'll clean up the language as much as necessary and check with the author to ensure I've not changed the meaning of anything. The guidelines describe some simple things the author can keep in mind during development, but getting the details right is the primary concern at that stage.

Finally, I want to make it clear that the new forums will be heavily and strictly moderated. We want focused, on-topic discussion there. On the web interface, each forum will have a banner at the top of the page that includes a link to the forum guidelines:

https://github.com/dlang/DIPs/blob/master/docs/guidelines-forums.md

With the publication of this announcement, Vladimir will deploy the new forums when he's ready to do so. At that point, the DIP Ideas forum will be open for business.

It is generally a requirement that a DIP idea be submitted to the Ideas forum first. I will delete any new thread in the Development forum for a draft DIP that was not first discussed in the Ideas forum. However, I will make exceptions if an author contacts me first with an explanation of why they want to skip the Ideas stage and makes it clear they understand what they're giving up.

We'll give this new process some time to see how flows. We can tweak it as we need to over time to work out any kinks.

February 28
Excellent.

I haven't heard anything about my export DIP, the last that was said from Mike is that Walter might want to review it external to the DIP process. Unfortunately no feedback beyond that so unless I'm told otherwise, its DIP TIME!

As it has already had a lot of back and forth from Walter and me with the help of Adam Wilson (very much appreciated!), it's ready for a development forum post.

So Mike, once the forum is up, am I in the clear to start at development?

https://gist.github.com/rikkimax/1d7cfdb8ed74e9e4efc9ba0208f42e7e
February 28

On Wednesday, 28 February 2024 at 03:28:01 UTC, Mike Parker wrote:

>

After discussion in a recent meeting, we're ready now to start accepting DIPs for review. And that means it's time to announce the new process.

Very excited to see this. I've already submitted my own DIP idea to get the ball rolling, and am looking forward to seeing what the rest of the community comes up with.

February 28
On Tuesday, February 27, 2024 8:28:01 PM MST Mike Parker via Digitalmars-d- announce wrote:
> Most of the process takes place in two new forums: DIP Ideas and DIP Development (dip.idea and dip.development on the NNTP server). The purpose of the Ideas forum is to determine if developing the DIP is feasible. The purpose of the Development forum is to strengthen proposals in development.

I see that they're up on the NNTP server, and the web forum is hooked up to them, but there is no mailing list. Is that forthcoming and just isn't up yet since that takes some time, or are these lists not going to have mailing lists like the others?

- Jonathan M Davis



February 29
On Wednesday, 28 February 2024 at 08:46:13 UTC, Richard (Rikki) Andrew Cattermole wrote:

> As it has already had a lot of back and forth from Walter and me with the help of Adam Wilson (very much appreciated!), it's ready for a development forum post.
>
> So Mike, once the forum is up, am I in the clear to start at development?
>
> https://gist.github.com/rikkimax/1d7cfdb8ed74e9e4efc9ba0208f42e7e

Yeah, go for it.
February 29
On Wednesday, 28 February 2024 at 19:24:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote:

> I see that they're up on the NNTP server, and the web forum is hooked up to them, but there is no mailing list. Is that forthcoming and just isn't up yet since that takes some time, or are these lists not going to have mailing lists like the others?
>

They had to be up on NNTP for them to be added to the forums. I just didn't think about the mailing list. I'll contact Brad.


February 28
On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 7:18:29 PM MST Mike Parker via Digitalmars-d- announce wrote:
> On Wednesday, 28 February 2024 at 19:24:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
>
> wrote:
> > I see that they're up on the NNTP server, and the web forum is hooked up to them, but there is no mailing list. Is that forthcoming and just isn't up yet since that takes some time, or are these lists not going to have mailing lists like the others?
>
> They had to be up on NNTP for them to be added to the forums. I just didn't think about the mailing list. I'll contact Brad.

Thanks.

- Jonathan M Davis



February 28
On 2/28/2024 7:34 PM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
> On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 7:18:29 PM MST Mike Parker via Digitalmars-d-
> announce wrote:
>> On Wednesday, 28 February 2024 at 19:24:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
>>
>> wrote:
>>> I see that they're up on the NNTP server, and the web forum is
>>> hooked up to them, but there is no mailing list. Is that
>>> forthcoming and just isn't up yet since that takes some time,
>>> or are these lists not going to have mailing lists like the
>>> others?
>>
>> They had to be up on NNTP for them to be added to the forums. I
>> just didn't think about the mailing list. I'll contact Brad.
> 
> Thanks.
> 
> - Jonathan M Davis

I set them up earlier today.  It's entirely possible I missed something while configuring them as it's been just over 6 years since the last new group was added, so do shout if anything looks off.  I see that the first two messages already posted made it through, so my confidence is reasonably high.

Also worth noting, the news group names are NOT dip.idea and dip.development.  They're actually digitalmars.dip.ideas (note the plural) and digitalmars.dip.development.

I made the list names just dip.ideas@ and dip.development@ for brevity.

Later,
Brad
February 28
On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 10:44:08 PM MST Brad Roberts via Digitalmars- d-announce wrote:
> On 2/28/2024 7:34 PM, Jonathan M Davis via Digitalmars-d-announce wrote:
> > On Wednesday, February 28, 2024 7:18:29 PM MST Mike Parker via
> > Digitalmars-d->
> > announce wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, 28 February 2024 at 19:24:32 UTC, Jonathan M Davis
> >>
> >> wrote:
> >>> I see that they're up on the NNTP server, and the web forum is hooked up to them, but there is no mailing list. Is that forthcoming and just isn't up yet since that takes some time, or are these lists not going to have mailing lists like the others?
> >>
> >> They had to be up on NNTP for them to be added to the forums. I just didn't think about the mailing list. I'll contact Brad.
> >
> > Thanks.
> >
> > - Jonathan M Davis
>
> I set them up earlier today.  It's entirely possible I missed something while configuring them as it's been just over 6 years since the last new group was added, so do shout if anything looks off.  I see that the first two messages already posted made it through, so my confidence is reasonably high.
>
> Also worth noting, the news group names are NOT dip.idea and dip.development.  They're actually digitalmars.dip.ideas (note the plural) and digitalmars.dip.development.
>
> I made the list names just dip.ideas@ and dip.development@ for brevity.
>
> Later,
> Brad

I was able to subscribe. Thanks!

- Jonathan M Davis



February 29
On Thursday, 29 February 2024 at 05:44:08 UTC, Brad Roberts wrote:

>
> I set them up earlier today.  It's entirely possible I missed something while configuring them as it's been just over 6 years since the last new group was added, so do shout if anything looks off.  I see that the first two messages already posted made it through, so my confidence is reasonably high.
>
> Also worth noting, the news group names are NOT dip.idea and dip.development.  They're actually digitalmars.dip.ideas (note the plural) and digitalmars.dip.development.
>
> I made the list names just dip.ideas@ and dip.development@ for brevity.
>
> Later,
> Brad

Much appreciated, Brad!